“I am neither a victim nor a perpetrator”

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Archbishop Ludwig Schick © Harald Oppitz (KNA)

Abuse of power is a taboo subject in the church. Archbishop Ludwig Schick of Bamberg has initiated a process that focuses especially on men. Men often have a harder time coming out of it after suffering abuse of power.

Interviewer: At first it sounds absurd that men should be subjected to abuse in the Catholic men's church. What is meant by abuse against men?

Archbishop Ludwig Schick (DBK Commissioner for Pastoral Care of Men): The topic of "abuse of power" has been discussed for some time in society as a whole, here in Germany, in Europe and internationally. Officials abuse their power for their lust for power, Their Greed and their Ambition. For greed for power usually stands the word "mobbing", for greed "corruption", for ambition "career addiction with elbow behavior". All this also exists in the church. But it was not or hardly discussed. Only when concrete cases of financial scandals, sexual abuse or even abuse of office arose, the topic was virulent.

Interviewer: Remains the question of the men's church!

Schick: In order to grasp the phenomenon of abuse of power by men against men in the church, it is also important to see that the church is not a men's church, especially with regard to employees and working conditions. The Catholic Church with the Protestant Church is one of the largest employers in Germany; however, most employees are women. There are also women in leading positions, for example in schools, kindergartens, also in ordinariates. There is also abuse of office among women and there is abuse of power by women against men and each other. It is also still very important to distinguish exactly what kind of abuse of power is involved and against whom. All this must not be overlooked in order to overcome the abuse of power in the church. Still, the problem of men abusing power against men in the church needs to be looked at specifically.

Interviewer: Why this own look?

Schick: The problem exists, as it does in society as a whole, that it is mostly men who hold the top positions, where power is concentrated, power being nothing bad, but necessary for functionality and task fulfillment of any company. Because it is mainly men who hold the leadership positions, men in dependent positions often do not get enough attention. Beyond the mentioned work relationships in the church, there are also associations and groups, orders and spiritual communities and others, in which men have authority and power over men. The initiative 'Abuse of power against men' wants to investigate this phenomenon and bring it to awareness. This is a matter of Boundary violation and assault, spiritual abuse and sexual violence, that men exercise against men. The inaugural event was just a first serve. More workshops and symposiums are already planned.

Interviewer: Wherever hierarchies are established, i.e., also in the extra-church sphere, there is abuse of power. What makes this so special in the church that extra conferences are held to deal with it??

Schick: As I said, it's about perceiving, judging, and acting on abuses of power in the church by men against men. First of all, once again, the problem of abuse of power by men against men is just as present in the church as it is in society at large. But there are two particularities above all: first, the "self-portrait of the Church: 'But with us it is not so. We are all brothers.' With this self-image one deceives oneself, if one does not pay attention self-critically. In the Gospel of Matthew it says: 'Then Jesus called them to him and said, "You know that the rulers oppress their peoples and the great use their authority against them. But with you it shall not be so, but whosoever will be great with you, let him be your servant." (Mt 20,25-27) and in the 23. In the first chapter of Matthew's Gospel, we read, "You shall not be called rabbi, for only one is your master, but all of you are brothers" (Matt. 23:8). These scriptural words are not Status report, but contain exhortations of Jesus to his disciples and to his churches for all times.

Interviewer: And the second peculiarity?

Send: The second reason is that men in leadership in the church derive their authority and authority from God or Jesus Christ. Moreover, they have the mission and claim to something higher and divine, the kingdom of God, the gospel, the church of Jesus Christ, etc. ADVANCE. For this they have divine authority and power. This is what makes the offices of leadership in the church so special.

On the other side are the subordinate men, who have to accept the higher authority in the spirit of following Jesus, which includes submitting, obeying, humility and also suffering. Therefore, when they are affected by abuse of power, they do not make it obvious, sometimes they are not even aware of their sufferings. If then the one strive forward and use their authority and thereby do not perceive the others in their condition and they accept everything, a fatal vicious circle arises. But this is an accumulation of power and subordination to authority that is not in accordance with the Gospel. Ministry, authority and power in the church are given by Jesus Christ. They must be inspired by the spirit of Jesus and serve the kingdom of God. The human dignity of each individual, which includes his freedom and self-determination, including his needs, is indispensable in this regard.

Interviewer: What consequences are indispensable to prevent abuse of power against men?

ChicAs I said, power must be perceived and taken seriously and is connected with every leadership office. But power must be controlled. All ministers are included in the communion of the church. This means they must be bound in teams, and there must be regular feedback. The New Testament also prescribes.

The spiritual dimension must play a role. In view of the Gospel and of Jesus, all offices and the powers associated with them must always be used only for the service of individuals and the community. Jesus' word: "I have come that they may have life and have it to the full" (Jn 10:10) must apply to all ministers. Truthfulness and transparency are required in all ministerial conduct. Ropes, male alliances and coterie – sources of abuse of power – are incompatible with the message of Jesus.

Interviewer: Where do you see a need for action on the canonical level??

Chic: Canon law prohibits abuse of power for personal advancement or careerism, ambition, and self-enrichment. However, the control mechanisms and sanctions are very much in need of development. Here the canon law must be improved. Above all, criminal law is very underdeveloped in canon law.

Interviewer: As archbishop you yourself are endowed with fullness of power. And at the same time have to bow to the word of power of the Pope, of the Vatican. So then you are both perpetrator and victim, or?

Schick: I am neither a victim nor a perpetrator! Ecclesiastical obedience is a canonical obedience between the Pope and bishops, bishops and priests, etc. and no cadaver obedience. This is often not sufficiently seen and practiced. Canonical obedience means that I am ready for tasks and offices in the church that a legitimate superior assigns to me and fulfill them as best I can. The one who demands and can demand canonical obedience – pope from a bishop, bishop from a priest, deacon from a pastoral worker(s), etc., can only demand obedience within the framework of the law, whereby morality is also indispensably to be observed. Abuse of power is a violation of the law and of morality. This also applies to pope and bishops. The canonical obedience is also a dialogical obedience. Before conferring ministries, the persons involved must talk to each other and there must also be a regular evaluation, which we call a personnel interview.

Interviewer: Is not also episcopal silence in cases in which objectively a word of power would be necessary, but it is not pronounced, an abuse of power??

Schick: Episcopal silence and silence overall, where a word of power against injustice and abuse of power would be necessary, is a violation of the law and at the same time a moral failure. This needs to be much more clearly stated in all areas of the Church. To this end, it is important to expose the pitfalls of abuse of power due to greed for power, greed and ambition, and to sharpen the instruments that prevent abuse of power. This includes canonical and moral, but also psychological and sociological measures and concrete help. In addition, good selection of ministers, constant monitoring and further training help against the abuse of power.

The interview was conducted by Marion Kruger-Hundrup.

Why do Catholics leave the church? The Essen diocese has been dealing with this question for some time now. Now a book summarizes the results. The authors' recommendation: Work intensively on the image of the church.

Interviewer: You might think that people are leaving the church because they want to save church taxes. But it's not that simple, is it?

Thomas Runker (staff department for communication in the diocese of Essen and co-editor of the book "Leaving the Church – or not? How the Church must change"): No. Our church-leaving study has shown that the ie of church tax is not the main reason for leaving the church. While there is a correlation between leaving the church and church tax, we tend to see it as church tax is often the trigger. Many people who have left tell us they left because of the church tax. But when you dig deeper – which is what our scientists did – quite different causes and reasons emerge. There are mostly ies like alienation and lack of commitment.

Interviewer: What does alienation mean in this context?

Runker: That is, in the portrayal of the people who, for example, appear in our book as interview partners, that they simply had no contact with a church congregation or the church as a whole for years. You can imagine that, as in a human relationship, the partners become estranged at some point, they no longer want to know anything about each other, and then they leave each other.

Interviewer: In your book, you therefore recommend turning to Catholics who never go to Mass and do not use any other church services. How can you turn your attention back to these people??

Runker: We believe that this has to go very gently. It is indeed the case that these people, from their point of view, for good reasons, do not participate in our offers, rarely go to church or otherwise hardly take advantage of opportunities from us. Therefore, there is the paradoxical situation that we have many members in our church, but only very few of them use our core services. That is why we believe that one must approach these people, who finance our church with their church tax, very cautiously. In our diocese of Essen we have been doing this for some years now. We have a membership magazine, "Bene," that is sent to every Catholic household five times a year, where we as a diocese try to build a bridge and let people know that they are members of our diocese and we are thinking of them.

Interviewer: You have also examined the financial consequences of church departures for the church, and they are quite dramatic, or?

Runker: Indeed. I would like to emphasize that the financial view, which we present as one of many views in this book, is also just one view. Of course, it's just as relevant to look at the pastoral perspective. But the financial point of view is important in that we can represent how existentially relevant the ie of church departures is to our organizational form of church. If you consider – and this is at least the amption in our diocese of Essen – that every person who leaves the church, and these are mostly employees, saves about 500 euros on average in church tax, and that we as a church are missing this money accordingly. Then that's at 4.We had 300 church resignations here last year, around two million euros that the church lacks, for example, to build or run daycare centers, to organize church services and the like. And that only in one year.

Interviewer: In one chapter of your book you also say that the Church is considered too regressive even by many conservative Catholics. Church doesn't fit well into today's world, they say. What helps? Abolition of celibacy and women as priests? That's probably not going to happen anytime soon. What to do?

Runker: The major irritant topics of our church are – as our study has also shown – not the only motives for leaving. Hardly anyone really resigns because of celibacy or because no women are ordained as priests. But image is indeed a big ie. The study recommends very clearly that if the church wants to prevent resignations, then it must work on this image, but not only on the packaging, but also on its identity. It is really a question of how we as a church behave towards homosexuals or how we behave towards divorced people who have remarried.

The interview was conducted by Verena Troster.

Maria Flachsbarth © CBA

CDU politician Maria Flachsbarth (52) has been Parliamentary State Secretary in the Federal Ministry of Agriculture since December 2013. She was born in 1963 in Lunen, Westphalia, and grew up in Verl in eastern Westphalia. Since October 2011, she has been president of the Catholic German Women's Association and a member of the Central Committee of German Catholics. She is married and has two sons.

Maria Flachsbarth, a CDU member of the Bundestag, is Parliamentary State Secretary in the Federal Ministry of Agriculture and is a candidate for president of the Central Committee of German Catholics (ZdK). In an interview, she explained her plans.

CBA: Ms. Flachsbarth, you are a trained veterinarian by training. What made you decide to enter politics??

Flachsbarth: Actually, my teachers in high school made me think of this, because I learned from them: Politics always happens – you can't escape it. The difference between democracy and non-democracy is only that in a democracy you can get involved and help shape things – or not. And that was never mine: just letting things happen to me.

CBA: As a CDU member of parliament for Hanover-Land, you are at home in a region with a strong Protestant influence. Does that change your attitude toward church and faith??

Flachsbarth: Yes, above all, you get an eye for what is really important. My experience in raising our two children is that there are many people who are no longer attracted to the church at all. In a society where Christianity is evaporating more and more, it is important to live the Christian message across denominational boundaries. Nevertheless, I am firmly anchored in my church. It also has a lot to do with liturgy, and I'm a Catholic through and through. But I find the Protestants very, very sympathetic – my husband, for example, to whom I have been married for 25 years, is one of them.

CBA: What appeals to you about the task of ZdK president??

Flachsbarth: I was asked if I could imagine doing that. And I have resisted this for a long time, because my life is full enough at the moment. On the other hand: I have been president of the Catholic German Women's Federation for four years. We emphatically demand more equal rights for men and women in the various structures of the church. And then it's difficult when no woman is available to run for the office of ZdK president, even though one is expressly being sought. That's where I felt I had a duty.

CBA: Does it make a difference whether the office is held by a woman or a man??

Flachsbarth: Women are not the better people, but women are different from men. There are differences in the way women and men see the world; we have different emotional approaches, different horizons of experience, different lifeworlds – for example, in the reconciliation of family and career.

CBA: How do you balance children and career?

Flachsbarth: My path would be inconceivable without the help of my husband, who has raised our boys alone for long stretches – quite well, in my opinion. We have not consciously planned this way of life, possibilities have arisen which we have always decided on together. That's what I would like to see for families in general: That they can follow paths in life as it suits them.

CBA: What are the most urgent challenges for the church?

Flachsbarth: I think that the dialogue process between bishops and laity, which has now come to a conclusion in Wurzburg, should be continued. In order to be visibly together church also outwardly and to show politics and society what drives us. Especially in a society that is sometimes very consumerist and self-centered, Christian content is more necessary than ever. It is important that we live our Christianity authentically together.

CBA: Does it annoy you that women are not allowed to hold a spiritual office in the Catholic Church – not even that of deaconess??

Flachsbarth: When we consider the role of women in the church, what matters most is what happens in the local community. Teaching communion, caring for the elderly, for refugees – very, very often women do this. When people learn about the love of Jesus Christ, women come to meet them. It is a question of fraternal interaction in the Catholic Church when we talk about the fact that there should also be more women in leadership positions. That is why I am pleased that the ZdK supports the cause of the diaconate of women – for example, through the annual "Day of the Deaconess".

CBA: Are you satisfied with the results of the family synod?

Flachsbarth: You give enough room for the pope's decisions. The path has been taken in the right direction. One speaks more unreservedly about these questions – even if one would like to see a further opening, such as the access to the sacraments for remarried divorcees.

CBA: How can the ZdK and the Bishops' Conference come together on controversial ies, such as the blessing of homosexual partnerships??

Flachsbarth: We must continue to consider this ie together. Does God want people the way he created them, even with their sexual orientation?? Pope Francis has said, "Who am I to judge this person." What is important to me is that we do not try to pit marriage and homosexual partnership against each other. These are indeed different things.

CBA: Do you see a chance to win over the more conservative Catholics, such as those who belong to the "Forum of German Catholics"??

Flachsbarth: I am ready for dialogue, I do not avoid any request for dialogue. That's why, for example, I also try to give an answer to everyone who writes to me – I also answer letters from this very conservative milieu.

CBA: To what extent is the church important for politics??

Flachsbarth: It is important for the church to speak out when it comes to the protection of life, the poor and the weak in society. The Church consciously sides with them, and in my view that is completely indispensable – especially at the moment with regard to refugee policy.

CBA: What does faith mean to you personally?

Flachsbarth: It belongs to my person, and I am at home in my church. As a politician, I am grateful not to have to solve everything in the last. Jesus' words from the Gospel of Matthew: "Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened" – this helps a lot in the face of the multitude of problems that exceed the strength of individuals.

CBA: What do you do in your free time? I have discovered some recipes on your homepage there.

Flachsbarth: Yes, I love to cook. Sunday lunch together is very important in our family. "Herdanzanzugungskraft" is what we call it, and then our two sons, who are 20 and 22 years old, also come into it. We talk to each other, we discuss political and church ies. My boys are basically sympathetic, but quite critical.

The interview was conducted by Nina Schmedding.

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